Kat, I've been freaking over TobyMac's new album!! I only like a few songs better than his older songs though, I have to admit. Tonight is probably my favorite.

Ooh! 10th Ave. N is coming out with a new album? I never knew!!! ::gets extremely excited:: They happen to be one of the only artists so far to come out with an album where I like every single song enough to buy the whole thing.



I wonder if that's a good thing? I'm afraid the same thing will happen to me.

Like, when I was around 10 or so I was your very typically sheltered homeschooler who only listened to classical music. And there's nothing wrong with that - but now I love all sorts of music that I thought was totally horrible when I was 10. That doesn't make it wrong now, but it wouldn't have been good for me if I was 10. But if I let myself slowly become more and tolerant, could that be okay?

I agree, Narnia Miss. Most of his old songs I like better. I haven't bought the album, and I don't think I will. I just listened to it on the web...

Yeah, Over and Underneath is one of those few albums like that for me as well. I wish I could get a hold of their other albums from when they were an unsigned band! But sadly they're not easy to get.

Concerning your last paragraph, Tru, that sounds exactly like me. I know a lot of people hold many different views on this topic, but honestly, here's my take. As long as the lyrics don't go against my beliefs or offend God in any way, I'm fine with listening to it. In my view, there's nothing wrong with Christian bands writing love songs, for instance. Love is beautiful and if the song has nothing inappropriate in it I say go for it. Some people are given the gift of songwriting and they should use their talent to create wonderful things & express themselves. As Matt Thiessen put it, "C.S. Lewis wasn't about just writing to Christians to make them better. He was about writing books that everyone could read and expand their minds. That's what music is all about, too."
I'm still not 100% sure where I stand though. It's true that Christian metal bands can reach out to other people who might otherwise not listen to their music, but it's also true that as Christians we should look different from the world. I really am not a fan of guys wearing tons of eyeliner and headbanging while they look like they're almost demon-possessed. Obviously when you're just listening to music these things probably aren't in the front of your mind, but I would never enjoy seeing them live
Also, if a certain genre or something about a band causes a person to stumble, or he/she has personal convictions against it, then I don't think it would be right for the person to listen to them.

@Kat & true: I'm becoming much less tolerant of different styles of music. As a child, I listened only to Christian [hymns, Gaither, Maranatha] and classical. I expanded to pop rock as a teenager, some of which was incredibly bad. I discovered CCM [contemporary Christian music] in college. I continued with that until I was 25 -- when God gave me a wake-up call in music. I realized a lot of the stuff I was listening to, and some of which the world calls "Christian," was NOT Christian. I've now reverted to hymns, Gaither, praise and worship ["contemporary" Christian] and Maranatha-type music. I don't even listen to much classical or Celtic anymore. That doesn't mean I've given up on CCM, because some contemporary Christian music isn't bad. It's the style and lyrics of some "Christian" genres I've given up on. I just want to warn you that if you get deep into heavy metal or rock, you may regret it. Others have. They've left listening to and performing Christian rock for something much different.

Good points, Kat. I agree with both. As Christians, we should look and act different. I know what it is to stumble because of certain types and groups/people in music. See above. My personal convictions say I want peace in music that should lift up the name of Jesus and bring God's presence, not drive Him away.

I disagree. We're told repeatedly in the Bible to "sing to God," to "sing to the Lord." The world will never mention the name of Jesus. Only Christians will. So it's our duty to do so -- in music. Anyone can write a love song. Only Christians can write about the love of Jesus. My mother told me once that she heard a Christian music producer say, "If a song doesn't mention Jesus or the cross or salvation" [something along those lines], "what good is it? What separates it from the world's music?" The Greek word for "church" is ekklesia, which means "to call out." We as Christians, followers of Christ and not of the world, have been called out of the world spiritually. We have been separated from the world and unto God. This is what holiness is all about -- spiritual separation.

AL, do you think it's wrong for authors (who are Christians) to write novels that are NOT parallels to the Bible or don't contain blatantly Christian themes? I'm just curious.

I guess what I'm saying is, bands that contain members who are Christians should write songs explicitly about God, but I don't think that every single one of their songs has to. I've seen it happen where somebody will listen to a song by a band like this that isn't explicitly Christian, and they like the style, so then they look into more of their music and end up listening to the music that presents the gospel message. I talked to a girl on the web a while back who said that she listened to Relient K (not as a Christian) because she liked their style. And one day she stumbled across their song "For The Moments I Feel Faint" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJDjuKjHEvM) not realizing what the lyrics would be about -- and it really caused her to stop and think, "what have I been relying on all my life? Myself? No wonder I've felt this empty." And that song was the thing that made her look into Christianity. I think it's safe to say that she wouldn't have listened to that song if she had not previously heard Relient K songs that weren't so explicitly Christian.(not bad songs though- their songs are about very positive things like holding your tongue, not being caught up in your past failures, etc)

I think you got the wrong idea. A Christian novel doesn't have to be biblical. But it should still be Christian. Why would a Christian author who's interested in writing fiction [or any other genre] NOT write about what's dear to them ... the Bible? Christ? The Gospel? ETC. The creative output--fiction, music, drama, non-fiction, art, etc--of a Christian who has real passion for Christ will bring up that person's passion! "Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth [or pen] speaks." The world talks about the world. Christians talk about Christ. Neither can help themselves. What's in their heart will overflow into their mouths -- music, writing, art, ETC.

Christians should be spiritually separate from the world. And that separation should be obvious in everything we say and do. It doesn't mean we shun unbelievers. We don't. Jesus didn't. But He also made it clear that He was different. Sinners were drawn to Jesus because of it, not in spite of it.

Of course not. An author can write about whatever they want. If they're Christian, they obviously aren't going to write, like, adult romance novels, but if it doesn't have an obvious Christian theme it's okay. Some stories might have a special Christian meaning to the author that no one else can understand, or maybe they just like to hide the meanings until someone decodes them (like the Narnia Code, which was *just* discovered even though the books have been around for ages ). J.R.R. Tolkien (Lord of the Rings) criticized the Narnia books for having too straightforward themes, but if he was alive now he could realize how wrong he was. There's hidden meanings within every book, especially the Narnia series, whether they're written by a Christian or not.

Tolkien himself had Christian meanings deep within his Lord of the Rings, hidden so well that no one noticed them unless they were specifically looking for them. I actually think it's more fun to decode the hidden meanings deep within rather than just acknowledge the obvious ones.

Wow...strong opinions make me write a lot...sorry

No worries - this is what threads are for! I feel a bit neglecting for having been out of the conversation for so long.

I think what Kat is trying to get at, Lily, is that there are different ways to reach out to people. One of my good friends told me that she didn't want to become a Christian for a long time because people kept telling her about it and bugging her - and it wasn't until she stayed with a family who just simply showed the love of Jesus to her that she began to see that there was something different about Christians.

Let me clarify - do you mean that you think all Christian music should say the name of Jesus or point specifically to Christ?



This is a good point. However, a good number of Christian bands who have songs that aren't explicitly Christian (Relient K, Addison Road, etc) also have commitments to keep their songs pure and pointing (like Kat said) in a right direction, about positive subjects. This is one thing that does separate them. On the opposite side, there are non-Christian artists who also sing about very positive things that could be perfectly alright by themselves - and this is where the line gets thinner and we as Christians have to be careful, always seeking God's will in the foggy areas where we aren't sure.

I don't think that just because a song doesn't mention Christ at all doesn't mean that it's bad or that you shouldn't listen to it. I've been encouraged by many non-Christian songs or even songs by Christian bands that don't exactly say Jesus name all the time.

A lot of it, I've discovered, also depends on the heart of the listener and your walk with Christ, as well as your personality.

I personally am in no way affected by the song "Get Down" by Audio Adrenaline. But it mentions Christ and is talking about how He is continually lifting us up. This would be an example of preference/personality.

"Book of Days" by Enya is not explicitly Christian. But yet it challenged me to think about how I'm living my life and what impact it is going to have on my life in the future and on God's kingdom. This is an example of a song that's not explicitly Christian but is still encouraging.



I agree. But I also believe that this can be done through other types of music and not just those that are constantly saying His name. (Yes, Christian metal included) You can praise God without saying his name. In Psalms it says "the heavens declare the glory of God..."

You don't always need to say His name or even hint at it in order to point to Christ. God works in amazing ways through all KINDS of circumstances.

Back to the Christian metal - I do believe that if, regardless of how Christian it may be, if it causes you to stumble, it's not good. Goodness, if someone like Tenth Avenue North were to cause you to sin and to turn against God, then by all means - don't listen to it! A lot of it is very dependent on you and your walk with God - which, I believe, is why it's so hard to tell sometimes, and why it's so easy to fall into what others listen to. We so often want to fit in that we don't realize that a huge part of following Christ is doing what HE wants and not necessarily what everyone else is doing - even if what everyone else is doing is alright.

1 Cor. says "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful" In other words, there are TONS of things that are okay to do and may not be harmful by themselves, but not all things will bring you to Christ, and that's really between you and God.

Real quickly on the subject of love songs - I don't think there's anything wrong with them. Even people like Taylor Swift. However. I do hold the strong belief that if the song is causing you to think about someone of the opposite gender more than God, more than you should, etc - then it's not good. But God wants husbands and wives to love each other (as Christ loved the church!) and love is a beautiful, beautiful thing. There's nothing wrong with celebrating it as long as you know where you stand and stand firm.

Sorry if I rambled.....

EDIT: In case it came across that way, I do not mean that all music can be or is good. There are hundreds of songs out there that are explicitly against the Lord or are deliberately going against what God has commanded - and those are not good. Separating ourselves, like you said Lily, from the things of this world is definitely good. But I think Jesus also said that we are to live in the world but not be of the world. (or something along those lines) We have to draw the line, but the line is in a different place for everyone. (and I think I've said that several times so I'll stop talking now..... )

I agree that God works in amazing ways. But you don't seem to understand the significance and power that comes just by mentioning the name of God [any of the nearly 700] in an attitude and spirit of praise [not cursing]. Check out the Psalms, all 150. What do you see over and over? The various names of God! Also check out songs/psalms/hymns in other parts of the Bible, like Exodus 15, Deuteronomy 32, Judges 4, and many passages in Revelation. The same thing happens. When people praise God, they mention His name. 1. They can't help themselves! 2. The name of the Lord = salvation, literally!

That's just one verse of Psalm 19. What does the rest say? [names of God in bold]

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard.
7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Do you see my point, true?

Lily, I do understand what you mean. It's very true that praising God by saying his name [I say praise...you all know I mean not cursing] is very powerful. It lifts my spirits immensely just to hear it sometimes. In fact, I've created an odd little loophole for myself: My dad (who is also my minister) tells me that we all need little reminders of God during our daily life. His own is a bookmark, a picture of Jesus. He uses it in all the books he reads, no matter how spiritual the book is itself. But every time he opens the book up, he thinks of Jesus' sacrifice.

My own little reminder is cursing. Yes, you read that right. Cursing. I go to a public high school, so I hear excessive amounts of it. But I've taught myself, so that whenever I hear the name of God misused, I think about it instead in a spiritual, praising sense. It's very helpful.

Anyway, back to my point: I do indeed agree with Lily, but I can see Tru's point too. You don't absolutely *have* to hear the name of God to be uplifted or to praise him. Certain non-Christian songs have helped me as well (Book of Days is really a good example). I think it's really personal preference more than anything else. If you prefer to hear the name of God used in music, then by all means listen to music that uses it! But don't think any and all songs that don't do so are bad or non-Christian, for they certainly are not.